Lez Say More Podcast
Welcome to Lez Say More: the podcast where your favorite duo of best friends—together for over 20 years—gets real about the queer community. Join us every Wednesday as we dive into everything from health and wellness, to fashion, relationships, sex - and even the occasional celebrity gossip. With our trademark humor and brutal honesty, we’re here to share stories, laughs, and insights about the (queer) modern life and all the fabulousness it has to offer. Whether you're part of the community or just curious, grab your favorite drink and join the conversation—because we promise to keep it funny, relatable, and absolutely unfiltered!
Lez Say More Podcast
Sperm Donors, IVF Costs, and Legal Hurdles: The Lesbian Parenting Roadmap
This episode explores the highs and lows of the IVF journey through the eyes of Amanda and her partner Jackie, in this episode we sit down with Amanda to discuss her perspective and we discuss the challenges of becoming parents as a same-sex couple. Alongside host discussions, listeners gain insights into sperm selection, the emotional toll of fertility treatments, costs, your options, legal challenges you may not know about and the joys and trials of parenthood.
• Understanding the unique challenges of same-sex parenting
• Navigating the emotional landscape of IVF and IUI
• Importance of support and communication between partners
• The process of selecting a sperm donor
• Financial and emotional costs of IVF treatments
• Legal considerations for same-sex couples in family planning
• Reflections on motherhood and personal growth
• Amanda’s experiences with cravings and hormonal changes
• Upcoming segment featuring Jackie's perspective on being a supportive partner
Thank you for being a part of our journey as we explore the many facets of family-building, love, and resilience.
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We actually had another lesbian couple of friends of ours who were going through the same thing. We actually picked the same donor and like it was just by chance that we were talking about it and they're like, yeah, we were going to pick this one, but then we changed our mind. I was like, oh, my God, hold up. This is like a new thing that we need to talk about between friends who are getting pregnant at the same time. There's a lot more hormones involved which is a wild ride.
Speaker 1:So I've heard yeah, and God love my wife for that. It sent us into therapy for sure, oh man.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, we just wanted to say that our hearts go out to everybody who has been affected by these fires in LA. We are both Los Angeles natives and we have grown up in this beautiful city, so it is near and dear to us, and we are really heartbroken about everything that has happened in the past two weeks and everybody that has been affected by it and all the homes that have been lost. So we just wanted to say that. You know, though we have seen the tragedy that the wildfires has caused. We wanted to also share that. We hope that this brings a little bit of joy and lightness and happiness to your lives, even though we're going through something so tragic at this moment in time. So I hope that you enjoy this episode. Hey guys, welcome back to the let's Say More podcast. I am Solange, I'm Ava, and today we have a special podcast episode for you guys. We actually have some special guests. We have sitting with us today Amanda Say hi.
Speaker 1:Amanda, this is your camera.
Speaker 3:Oh hi, and then that's our everybody camera Hi everybody.
Speaker 2:You don't have to say hi to that one, because that's just me All right.
Speaker 2:We are going to be chit-chatting today about IVF and your journey with IVF and having a baby and all that good stuff. Her wife, Jackie, who I've known for Jesus I don't even know over 20 years, is here as well. We're going to have you guys swap for the second half of this and we're going to chat with Jackie about being a supportive partner to Amanda and her pregnancy and what that's been like for her, Because at this current moment you are carrying a baby, baby number two, baby number two. And baby number two has a different DNA. Right, it does. Yeah, has Jackie's embryo, Yep.
Speaker 4:Oh, very nice.
Speaker 2:That's a Jackie baby. That's a Jackie baby. So do you have different cravings?
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say 100%. It's so weird. The first trimester so Jackie loves like diner food and chicken fried steak, jack in the Box and like all of these and I don't really crave those things, but first trimester, all of them. I wanted diner food. What else was it like? Jack in the Box all the time, just the babies made of Diet Coke and Jack in the Box.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. Have you craved a cigarette? Yet the baby man, the baby's gonna come out smoking. It's like Diet Coke, oh my God.
Speaker 3:Have you craved a cigarette? Yet the baby may have the baby's going to come out smoking the baby, it's like Diet Coke and nicotine Diet Coke and nicotine for the baby.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that's hilarious. So we're going to start off by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you met Jackie and basically your relationship Now. You guys are married now. Yes, You've been married. For how long?
Speaker 1:Six years oh okay, I think we just had our six-year anniversary, yeah that sounds about right, yeah, 2018. Okay, we've been together no, like nine, It'll be nine in April. Nine years, yeah, you've been together. Nine years You've been married years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've been together nine years. You've been married six. Yeah, how did you guys meet?
Speaker 1:So we met actually on OkCupid back in 2018.
Speaker 2:We've been trying to get somebody who, like, did online dating to tell us about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we were kind of both in similar. Well, you know how like lesbian circles are right. Oh yeah, I was in the Woodland Hills lesbian circle and it's difficult to find someone who hasn't been with someone that you've been with, right yes, when you're in those circles. So I was like online dating. I'm single, let's do it. I'm not looking for anything, I just want to meet different people than what I've been hanging out with.
Speaker 2:Not to say those girls were lovely, but you know you got to branch out, but you don't want to date them, you don't want to marry them, right?
Speaker 1:And so I signed up for OkCupid. I was on there for a month or so and I was having a great time going to Dinah doing all the things like being single Dinah.
Speaker 2:Shore, I know, that was fun. I've only been once. Oh, that was great, me as well.
Speaker 1:The short the like four-month period where. I was like I'm going to live it up.
Speaker 4:I'm going to do my life.
Speaker 1:Wasn't looking for anything serious, just really looking to meet people and hang out and figure out what I wanted to do Because I was like getting into my late 20s, Went online, Saw because I was like getting into my late 20s went online, saw Jackie I guess she'll tell you her story. But she had just put up the profile and we were talking and chatting probably for like three weeks before we met up and stuff. And then we went to Figaro Mountain Brewing Company and sat there, was talking and I am somewhat of an introvertvert and she's an extrovert, so she like really carried the conversation for us and I was obsessed from that point forward. After that date I just wanted to see Jackie and then, like in true lesbian fashion, it was like every day I'm like do you want to live with me?
Speaker 4:in my studio apartment. I'll bring the U-Haul live with me in my studio apartment.
Speaker 2:Please come be with me. I totally can see Jackie rolling up with the.
Speaker 3:U-Haul or like a truck With her pickup truck. Oh, she had a pickup truck.
Speaker 1:We were spending a lot of time together. I think there were maybe like a handful of days during the week where we weren't at each other's houses. The moving in part didn't happen for like six months.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's pretty good. That's in the time frame. It's less than a year.
Speaker 3:It's less than a year. Oh it's definitely less.
Speaker 1:We were engaged a little over a year. Yeah, lesbians, and we bought or I bought, but technically we bought a house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, remember what's hers is yours and what's yours is yours yes, correct.
Speaker 1:Yes, um, jackie was thrilled with the relationship. Yeah, I think we bought a house like 10 months in, something like that.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah and then baby talk came.
Speaker 1:How soon after that 10 and a half months I want you to have my baby yeah, serious baby talk like how are we going to afford IVF? How are we going to do all that stuff? Well, we got through buying the house and then we got through the wedding which was, which was beautiful, by the way, thank you.
Speaker 2:It was in Big Sur, but wildly expensive.
Speaker 1:I went to that. Where was the wedding In Big Sur?
Speaker 2:Oh wow, it was beautiful and this beautiful home. It was beautiful, it really was. It was absolutely wildly expensive.
Speaker 1:And then I would say pretty quickly after, because I got married at 30. And I was like I don't, oh, me too, yeah.
Speaker 2:My first wedding.
Speaker 4:Oh, you're planning on having a second one, who knows, I will at some point. I'm here for it. I'm open to getting married again. I need someone to get married soon.
Speaker 2:I want to go to a wedding I don't know about soon. Well, I just want to go to a wedding.
Speaker 1:Like tomorrow. But you know, I just want to go to a wedding In six months.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Maybe, in six months Lesbian time.
Speaker 1:So after we finished paying off the wedding and doing all that, we're like okay. So how are we going to afford this? Because insurance didn't cover anything. I think that's changing now. It's supposed to change. It's supposed to be changing which is incredible and amazing for people.
Speaker 4:It's going to cover all of IVF now. Yeah, everywhere. Yeah, like across the board.
Speaker 2:But you guys were in a unique situation because Jackie worked for a medical company, right Like she worked for Kaiser. Hospital so she had some coverage right.
Speaker 1:Some coverage with the IUIs.
Speaker 2:So can you explain to us what the differences are? What is IVF? What is IUI? What are, what are the options for people that don't know what any of this is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so IUI is the interuterine insemination.
Speaker 1:So, it's basically where they take the washed sperm, so like the best of the best of the swimmers, and they insert it directly into the uterus during your timed cycle. So they give you hormones, they time your cycle, do all of that stuff. Timed cycle so they give you hormones, they time your cycle, do all of that stuff, and so essentially it's as close as you can get to a natural cycle. There's no like extraction, there's no like ICSI happening with the fertilization of the egg. It kind of happens, or supposed to happen, like naturally.
Speaker 2:So would this be as close to the term like a turkey baster, yes, as you would get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so IUI you can do in an office. Iui you can I don't know if it's technically called IUI when you do it at home.
Speaker 3:With the turkey baster, with the turkey baster, yeah.
Speaker 1:But essentially it's the same thing. Okay, you buy the washed vial of sperm, or, if you want to go the other way, you can have a friend or something like that, um, but essentially, yeah, it's just inseminating the sperm directly into the uterus is what the is okay, yeah, and then ibf is ivf is in vitro fertilization, so ivf is kind of twofold. It's not. It does not include the transfer, which is actually putting the fertilized egg into the uterus, so that's a completely separate cost which a lot of people don't think about.
Speaker 2:People think IVF is encompassing everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's it's technically not so. When you hear about people going through like multiple rounds of IVF, it's because they didn't have a successful egg retrieval, or their eggs didn't fertilize the way that they want them to, or when they did the DMNA testing, the eggs weren't viable, or something like that or there was something wrong with the eggs or the embryos at that point. With IVF there's a lot more hormones involved which is a wild ride.
Speaker 2:So I've heard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and God love my wife for that. It sent us into therapy for sure. Oh man, anybody who you know is going through this know that you're not in a unique situation if your relationship is struggling during the hormonal phase.
Speaker 4:Why did you choose to go the IVF route rather than the IUI route?
Speaker 1:Well, actually we did do the IUI route. Oh, you did do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that was actually covered by that was covered through Kaiser, through Kaiser.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:So I guess we could kind of just start at the beginning of all of it if you guys want to go through it. So we finally decided okay, we're going to have a baby. We figured out how we were going to finance it. Luckily, we both have like FSAs available, and then I had enough in my 401k that we could like take out a loan and like get it all covered. And so then we started with the sperm selection, which is a very. It is a unique experience.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1:You think people have an opinion on baby names?
Speaker 2:Let me tell you the opinions that they have on sperm donors? Did you ask your family?
Speaker 1:or like friends, like some people, and we actually had another lesbian couple of friends of ours who were going through the same thing. We actually picked the same donor and, like it was just by chance that we were talking about it, and they're like, yeah, we were going to pick this one, but then we changed our mind. I was like, oh my God, hold up, this is like a new thing that we need to talk about between, like friends who are getting pregnant at the same time, like we have that we need to talk about between friends who are getting pregnant at the same time. We have to talk about each other's donors.
Speaker 4:They would have been siblings.
Speaker 2:No, not would have been. They are siblings. They would have. Oh, they didn't pick the same donor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they ended up going a different direction. I thought they did.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that donor didn't end up working out, so anyway, and each one of these are like between a thousand and fifteen hundred dollars a pop. Like the vial, the vial, just the vial, just the vial and they tell you about liquid gold wild and men just waste it every day so they're not wasting it if it feels good oh, that's true
Speaker 1:um. So after you kind of go through it, and it took us six months to at least agree on a donor um, and it took us even longer before that to agree on a company that we wanted to go with, because there's there's companies all over but the entire like industry of, like IVF and, you know, infertility or fertility is wildly unregulated, Like it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I watched that documentary.
Speaker 1:Me too.
Speaker 4:I mean the guy with like a thousand kids or whatever. The guy with a thousand kids. Yeah, that was wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that shit is crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's definitely not as regulated as it probably should be, especially with, like, the sperm donation and things like that. So going through and picking a company that you feel comfortable with is important. So the one that we ended up going with was California Cryo. We had a couple other friends go with a few different ones, but we liked the location of California Cryoank and everything that they did with the donors. So all of the screening, all of the genetic testing, and I think about it like everything, because you can filter too of what you're looking for. So you can filter by degree, you can filter by height, you can filter by eye color, you can filter by all of these things, and so I do think about it often how, like, people just randomly get pregnant with someone like they find attractive.
Speaker 1:Or they met at a bar, or they met at a bar To have a one night stand. And I'm like you don't have a full report of his genetic history.
Speaker 2:You don't know if his mother had blue eyes or green eyes. Yeah yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 1:So we liked the amount of information that you could get. We also liked that you could see baby pictures and adult pictures. That is imperative. Pay the extra money to see the adult pictures, because, I kid you not, some of the most gorgeous kids cutest little babes you see the adult pictures and I'm like damn, you're like nah, especially with men especially with especially with men.
Speaker 2:Men, children do not look anything like adult men nothing.
Speaker 1:So we paid the extra money, went through that whole process. Um, then about six months later we agreed on a donor. We really, really liked them. There were a few things that stuck out. They have to write like essays and things like that and they have to do voice interviews and stuff. So you can hear what they sound like, you can see what their education level is and through their writing style you can kind of see like the one we picked was like a little sarcastic and kind of like oh, like Jackie, yeah, and so we yeah, so we really liked him started that journey.
Speaker 1:I think we bought six vials, because that's all he had left.
Speaker 2:So you just snatched them all up. He was a popular one.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing too, is you don't ever know if they're going to be donating again. So you can sign up and say, hey, notify us if vials become available. And so that could happen in two ways. They donate again or someone sells their vials back because you can do that as well. Okay, like with our current donor, we have, I don't know, four, four or five vials left um. Could you sell?
Speaker 2:them to other people. We we could sell them back to cryobank, but you can't give them to somebody else. I'm sure let's say you had a friend who wanted to donate yeah, yeah, so like you could, yeah, you could donate it.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure interesting I don't know what the paperwork would be on that yeah, yeah, I'm sure you could donate it or you can have it destroyed okay we got that and then went through the whole thing through kaiser to start the iui process. Okay, uh, at first we did unmedicated rounds and I think we did three of those and then went through the whole thing through Kaiser to start the IUI process. At first we did unmedicated rounds and I think we did three of those and then we did one medicated round.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? Medicated?
Speaker 1:Yeah, medicated. So the difference is that you're still taking some medication when you're doing the regular IUI because you're kind of trying to time your cycle. It's the equivalent of like birth control. Oh, okay, yeah, just so they can time your cycle and make sure everything's good. The medicated I can't remember the name of the medication actually, but essentially it makes you release and mature like not just one, not just two, like a whole bunch of eggs.
Speaker 1:Oh, not just one, not just two, like a whole bunch of eggs, oh, and so I think at any given point in time I dropped like four or five eggs into that round.
Speaker 2:And so the issue with that is, you could have potentially one or more eggs fertilized.
Speaker 1:Oh, you see, you could have more than one baby, yes, but that poses like a really interesting thing that people don't talk about, because then you have to have start having these conversations of okay, if it's more than two, maybe becomes three or four. It's dangerous yeah yeah, and so now you have to have the conversation of okay, you're going to have to terminate one or more of these pregnancies, to make it safe for you if that happens, so thankfully it never happened to us.
Speaker 1:We never had to make that choice, but you know, it's something that you never think about when you're doing that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was definitely. I think the whole fertility journey brings out a lot of interesting questions that you have to answer with your partner and like see where you both feel about it, and it's things that you can't really talk to other people about, especially like your parents, like my parents, anyway, you know people who have never had to go through this process and it can feel really isolating sometimes to it sounds like it yeah, but that's why it's good to pick a partner that goes through it with you and is there yeah yeah, jackie, I'm sure held it down she did we.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's. It's a little jarring, especially when you're on the hormones and stuff, because you can react any kind of way with it, like for me when I'm on estrogen. I'm a raging bitch.
Speaker 2:And I'm like a pretty nice person for the most part and I'm just like raging.
Speaker 1:It makes me angry.
Speaker 2:Everything makes me angry.
Speaker 4:Poor Jackie. She probably had to do her own therapy like every day.
Speaker 2:She's like every time she had to do an injection. She's like saying her Hail Mary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's what it totally was like, I would say, for the first round of the IVF and going through that, we definitely learned a lot from the first one. I would say that the second round was way better because we did couples therapy, I did personal CPT therapy, like we worked on it and you know. But yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 2:And all of this was just the ICU, iui.
Speaker 4:IUI Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, so the estrogen I didn't have to take until the IVF. So the IUI we went through we did about four unsuccessful cycles, one medicated Okay, and I will say the but even without all of the hormones, the emotional toll that it takes during that like two week wait period. Oh yeah To see if it worked out. Yeah, and then like the heartbreak that you feel when it doesn't work out and it still costs money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it still costs money, Like even though we did it through Kaiser and they covered the transfer fee or the insemination fee, it still costs money because you're burning through these vials. You know, and sometimes you burn through one, two, three vials because they're doing, you know, inseminations a couple times, like you know for a couple days for a couple of days you go through this feeling of like maybe something's wrong with you, something's wrong with your body, and that that those feelings are incredibly isolating, because even though you have the most supportive partner, and she was a wonderful partner.
Speaker 1:It's still you, you know. You're still feeling like I'm broken Something's wrong with me? And I think that's a universal feeling whether you're a lesbian or a straight couple or whatever. So the heartbreak and the emotional toll it took after the IUIs yeah, was, I think, much harder for me than the IVF. So the IVF was hard in regards to the hormones and everything that it did to my body and you know all of that stuff, but I would say that the heartbreak that came with the IUIs was very hard, oh man.
Speaker 2:So okay. So you guys did the IUIs four tries, no success. Then you did you take a break and then start doing IVF. I had to take a break.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I was just not in a good mental state. No, and like you have to. When you're doing all of this, or you're trying to get pregnant or doing that, you still have to act like you're pregnant, right?
Speaker 2:For the most part they're like don't smoke, don't drink, don't drink, don't do, and all you want to do is have like a glass of something to take the edge off.
Speaker 1:You're like oh my god or for me it's the other, it's, you know, an edible here there you know um. But so, yeah, I had to take a break and kind of like recenter and um, before we started to try again, because it does also take you out of your body like you're kind of in a fight with your body. You're like you bitch.
Speaker 2:You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean Like come on.
Speaker 4:We're a team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's like, nah, nah, we're not a team.
Speaker 4:How long was the process of the IUI, like from like, how many months did you go through it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think in total. Here's the other kicker too. We started in April of 2020, which was right in the pandemic.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:So, we did all of the or February. So we did all of the testing in February, got everything sorted and then we had had our vials. By that point we were getting ready. Pandemic hit they're like we don't know what this is.
Speaker 1:So a lot of the like, protocols and everything they're like just wait, let's wait like four or five months, see what's going to go on with this. And so we started actually back up. Our first IOI was like in August I think, and so you can do an IOI cycle every month. We did it every month after that. Then it was the holidays and I'm like I need a minute.
Speaker 2:You're like I need to be in a good frame of mind for this.
Speaker 4:My friends. They did the IUI from the same California cryobank. She got pregnant right away. They have two babies and both were iui. And then they have a friend who did iui too and they thought they were going to have the same sperm donor. The same thing happened, like with you, and then they didn't, and then that woman did iui and it took right away. Yeah, that's, it's interesting like it's a interesting.
Speaker 2:We're so different. Are they young Now?
Speaker 4:When they did it were they young. No, they're our age, the babies are.
Speaker 2:I think her oldest daughter is no, not the babies, the mamas, Like they were in their 30s when they did it.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, and that's the thing too. The experience is unique depending on where you're at.
Speaker 2:And the whole time.
Speaker 1:I just remember thinking when it was not working with the IUI. I'm like I have been gaslit about fertility.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I was told all of my teenage years and all of my like well, my teenage years, because I was only sleeping with women in my 20s, so it wasn't that big of a deal, but like you could get pregnant any second One time you can get pregnant. Like it was so easy, like it's the easiest thing in the world. And then I had difficulty with it and I'm like this is bullshit, bullshit.
Speaker 4:This is bullshit. I could have been running around in my teens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just knocking them out, Just knocking them out. Oh yeah, just knocking them out, just knocking them out.
Speaker 4:Oh, you want to have sex, let's go you want a baby. You want a baby? No, or we could just have unprotected sex and it wouldn't matter, because your parents put that fear in you that you were going to get pregnant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. You could just have been hoeing around, hoeing around, you wouldn't have gotten pregnant and you would have had a lot of stories to tell oh man Like this one time, you know, I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then there's people who go through the IUI and it takes right away.
Speaker 2:I have friends that that has worked for, then they get pregnant just by sneezing. Yes, like my cousin.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, I have a friend like that too, like anytime her husband looks at her and I'm like God damn it, like I think we're going to start trying. Three weeks later she's like I'm pregnant. What it was, wild. Okay, good for you, babe.
Speaker 2:Good for you.
Speaker 1:And she's also in her late 30s too, and I'm like good for you babe.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, Amazing what the hell.
Speaker 1:So it really is like individual to individual person.
Speaker 4:Then when did you try the? So you took a break during the holidays, during the holidays, yeah, and then you guys started the IVF process.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we started the IVF process probably the following spring, I can't remember the exact date. That's when you start the hormones. And you have to go through this whole process too, because at that stage we had decided that we no longer wanted to work with Kaiser directly, because with Kaiser you have to go through so many IUIs, and I think we still had to do a couple more.
Speaker 4:You had to go through so many IUIs and I think we still had to do a couple more you had to go through IUIs before they let you do the IVF?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh wow, I think it's five or something like that. Six.
Speaker 4:Six yeah. Your wife over there said six. It's six yeah.
Speaker 1:And so just the emotional toll that the IUIs had taken on me. I'm like I can't do it.
Speaker 2:You're like no, let's just.
Speaker 1:And then like Kaiser's wonderful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, but we saw the main fertility doctor once on our intake oh. And then it was nurses, and then it was other doctors.
Speaker 4:PAs.
Speaker 1:PAs or whomever, because that's how they work, that's how the system works and it's wonderful. But I would say, for how I was feeling through the journey, it was much nicer to like get to know a doctor. Yeah, and that's what I wanted, and they hold your hand through the process, yeah, and like they get to know you and they get to know your partner and they can help you guide through what is best for your circumstances.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And so we decided that's what we wanted, that route we wanted to go. So then you have to go through the whole. Let's find a fertility clinic. Okay, Now we have to like interview or consult with these fertility clinics. And thing about the fertility clinics is you have to be located close to them because of the amount that you have to be in the office. It's like you have to go for checkups every other week, if not every week. Okay, yeah, because they're checking your hormone levels.
Speaker 2:They're checking you know, they're titrating the medications, they're doing all this stuff and making sure you're not in that like ovulation phase, because if you are, then you have to come in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they're very specific about it. So you go through your consult phase and then they're like, okay, this is wonderful. Are we all feeling good about it? We want to move forward. Call me on the first day of your next period and then everything happens very quickly.
Speaker 4:Then when you do have those office visits as frequent, do they charge you for each office visit or is it like a package? Generally it's a package.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so generally it's a package. You know what it is going to be upfront. Now, with each one of those package comes a certain number of visits, the numbers that they think there should be, and that gets adjusted depending on, like, your age, your weight, your lifestyle.
Speaker 1:How healthy you are, how healthy you are yeah, so the package varies and then you have the medication on top of it and like any additional things. So like, if you get stuff outside of the what is covered in the package, then those are like a la carte prices like, if you have to get additional ultrasounds because we're worried about one thing or the other, then you have to pay for it, but for the most part for us we didn't have to pay too much outside of of the like what we were quoted outside of the like.
Speaker 2:What we were quoted, okay, and how many IVF cycles did you guys do?
Speaker 1:So I ended up doing one and a half. We'll say, oh, okay, yeah. So the first one that we did, the medication wasn't quite right for my body, so it did not. By the time we got to the point where, like, okay, let's check out how many eggs are maturing. There wasn't enough eggs, there was like maybe seven. So the thing with how the eggs work, right. So you want as many eggs as possible because more than likely 50% are not going to be usable. And then out of that 50%, you still have to go through the fertilization and see how many take. And then that always goes down. And then you go through the genetic testing and then that narrows it down. So, like when Jackie did her IVF, I think she got 29 eggs, which is like, wow, I'm like you spawned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, it's like a wild amount of eggs, wow, but in the end, yeah, she has PCOS, pcos, oh, so do I, yeah, yeah, so you guys have a lot of eggs stored. They're just not great quality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of them are old in there. A lot of them are old.
Speaker 1:And then she ended up with how many did you end up with? I am 20, but we only tested 15, so out of the 29 that she originally had.
Speaker 4:Let's say, harvested 29 eggs. That is insane 29. I'd be interested to see how many you have what probably have 30 eggs.
Speaker 2:People with pcos tend to have a lot of uh fertility problems like fertility issues they can't get pregnant, or they get pregnant but they're not viable pregnancies and so but which, from what I know from a lot of people that I've known that have had PCOS, they have to go through IVF in order to get pregnant, and it's multiple like tries that they go through to get, and it's because you know the go through to get and it's because you know this, the same thing that happened with jackie.
Speaker 1:She had 29 eggs, but at the end of the day only five were viable.
Speaker 2:But that's still a lot of embryos revival yeah, yeah, like five embryos at 36 I think she was 36, five embryos at 36. That's, that's really yeah.
Speaker 1:So, whereas when I did it the first round, so the first round I ended up not having enough eggs, so we canceled the IVF portion. Because that's significantly more money we turned it into a medicated IUI.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:So that was like the fifth IUI that I had done and then the next month we did an IVF. They adjusted the medication. Everything worked out great.
Speaker 2:Got it, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So, but I only ended up with 14 eggs extracted at 33.
Speaker 2:And how many were viable?
Speaker 1:Seven.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:So we, you go through it's three stages. So the extraction you're like okay, this is how many eggs we got. Okay, this is how many mature eggs we got. Okay, this is how many fertilized. Okay, this is how many out of the fertilization past genetic testing, and so at each stage you lose a significant amount. So you could lose, you know, up to 50 on average, it's like 50%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can start with like 30 and then you end up with one.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. If that's crazy, Depending on your health level your age. Pcos obviously plays a role in it and things like that and each person is different, but on average they say about 50 percent. If, like you're in normal, good health, nothing you lose. About 50 percent of what you harvest.
Speaker 4:Wow, I don't know if harvest is the right word.
Speaker 1:We're going to go with harvest.
Speaker 4:We're going to go with harvest. That's what it feels like. We're going with it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So okay. So then that whole process, of which we'll say the cost of the IVF. Only, how much did you guys spend approximately on just the IVF?
Speaker 1:For both of us. No, just you, just me, just the first baby, just the first baby. Okay, so the full IVF cost for one full round of IVF was like $20, $22. Yeah, that's about what I hear, and then we paid $3,000, $3,500 for the transfer, so all in all it was like $25,000. But we had already spent a lot of money on the first round of medication of the canceled IUI. Luckily we got to use some of that in the second round of IVF.
Speaker 2:I hear that the medication is more expensive. The most expensive part of it all it is very expensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's wild, like these tiny little vials you're like you cost $300 a pop, but yeah, so the medication is crazy. I can't remember the exact breakdown of like what the like the doctor fees were versus like the medication and the doctor fees for like the canceled IUI and Rowan or the IVF, the transfer, rowan's the baby that came out of it. So that whole process is probably somewhere around 20, between 25 and 28.
Speaker 2:Did you guys get to pick the sex. Yes, so you guys decided okay is that extra?
Speaker 1:It is not. I was going to say everything's extra.
Speaker 2:Oh, if you're doing, then it is extra. It's included in the genetic testing.
Speaker 1:It's included in the genetic testing. Okay, if you decide not to do genetic testing. I think they know, but oftentimes some people the couples make the decision to just pick the best egg.
Speaker 2:Yeah like the healthiest egg the healthiest egg and we'll roll with it.
Speaker 1:That way they can still do a gender reveal. If they want all of that kind of stuff, they tell you how many out of those, seven were male and female. Yes, so I had more males than I had females. Oh, so I had three females and four males.
Speaker 2:And so then, oh okay, so then you guys just said, how did you guys come to that decision of we're gonna, we're gonna have the girl?
Speaker 1:so initially I was really adamant of like let's transfer the best one. Like let's transfer the best one, it'll be fine, johnny's. Like let's see, let's see what the results are. And it ended up being that we had two embryos that were graded the same one boy one girl.
Speaker 4:Oh, process of elimination.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we picked the girl Jackie won, jackie won that round yeah.
Speaker 2:So when you were picking out your donors, did you guys ever think of going with someone you knew, or was it?
Speaker 1:always a decision that we would go with a bank. We talked about it, but we did not feel comfortable with it. Yeah, um, and it's just, you know, I, I think the person that you would pick in that situation you would have to be very, very close with they would have to be very clear understanding, you know, because you're not sharing parentage of the child you know, and it's a unique process and, I think, people who can make it work and have that relationship.
Speaker 1:It's wonderful. We didn't have one of those and, for both of us, having like the legal paperwork and all this stuff made us feel much more secure when picking a donor. We did, however, pick a donor who one of the criteria is it can be anonymous or they can be available when the kid turns 18. Like, if the contact information is the same, the kid can contact them. So we did want to have the possibility that, if they were ever interested, that they could contact the donor. Okay, yeah, yeah, if it came to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, would you guys do a bank or somebody you know?
Speaker 4:The same situation as her. We don't have anyone that we feel comfortable with, because it is tricky, right, you have the baby, and then what if the person wants to? We don't want to co-parent with anyone, so we're doing the bank and we signed up for the California, cairo, cryo, cryo, yeah, cryo Bank. So after the honeymoon, that's my homework. And we want it to be your eggs. Well, I read that it's more expensive that way. Well, they did that too. That way it's more expensive for me to put my egg into.
Speaker 2:Like right now you're carrying Jackie's baby, yeah.
Speaker 4:Like did it cost more?
Speaker 1:No, Not really.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:To doing the reciprocal IVF, the only thing that I think you would have to.
Speaker 2:There's a name for it Reciprocal yeah reciprocal IVF.
Speaker 3:Reciprocal, yeah, reciprocal it's more expensive, though, because you both have to be on medication.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you're both on medication and you both have to do testing.
Speaker 3:And you both have to do testing make sure there's no genetic anomalies between you and the donor.
Speaker 4:Yeah, to do your internet testing.
Speaker 3:But because you're married, it's a what was the reciprocal? Transfer If you weren't married, they would call that a surrogate.
Speaker 1:And then they would charge you a surrogacy, and it's a lot more money.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay, so that's probably what people were telling me was that part.
Speaker 3:Okay, marriage is what solidifies it.
Speaker 2:Okay, ok. So if you are married, a married couple, then it's considered reciprocal IVF and you are not charged extra. But if you are not married, and let's say you're just dating or you can't legally marry, then she's considered a surrogate for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's sometimes surrogate fees. But circling back, like Jackie was mentioning, you both have to be on medication.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, what's that like? I don't know, we didn't do it.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank God, At the same time, we didn't do it. Oh, you guys didn't do it at the same time no because reciprocal IVF generally is and you can do it a couple ways. You can do a live transfer which is you don't do genetic testing, and as soon as the eggs are harvest, fertilized, they get transferred into you, and then you are on medication at the same time. It kind of happens very quickly you know, genetic testing, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Or you kind of do what Jackie and I did was Jackie went through IVF let's, I think, in February of 2023. And, uh, then I did the transfer in July. So we spaced it out right, but we still had to both be on medication. You also have to both do the testing. So, genetic testing other like physical testings the receiving partner who's ever going to be receiving the egg has to do like. I can't remember what it's called, but it's like a water test in your uterus to make sure to get it all checked out.
Speaker 1:So, and all of these things have to happen with whomever is going to be carrying. So yeah, I'm not sure it's not significantly more money. Okay, just a little bit more. Just a little bit more, yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean I would love to have her. You know, I would love to see a little Ovo running around, because I've always wanted that you know, even when I was young.
Speaker 4:But you know, I just ultimately want her to carry and I just want us to have another baby. I think that's a little less important than having a little Ava running around, if I'm being candid about it. But I think if I look at the cost and it makes sense and you know I can handle it then I'll do it. I just don't know how I'll be on medication.
Speaker 2:I might be horrible, I just don't know how I'll be on medication.
Speaker 4:I might be horrible.
Speaker 2:How was Jackie? Was she a raging bitch too?
Speaker 1:No, no, she wasn't See my point of view.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not your experience. This is Amanda's point of view.
Speaker 3:Let me say one thing, though the medication's different because it's egg harvesting medication, so it's not also medication to prep your is different because it's egg harvesting medication.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's not also medication. Yes, your body. So it's okay, let's. So it's okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's be clear because no, no one can hear you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's say, okay, let's, let's do that prep medication is the estrogen and the progesterone and that shit makes you crazy okay, yeah, that I don't want that no, that's the prep medication. Okay then I'm fine for receipt the other medication. It makes you emotional, Like you're very emotional, so she was very emotional. Yes, but also she can be emotional yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was just like a heightened. She's a Taurus as well.
Speaker 4:Yes, oh, no, I'm a Cancer.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, oh no. I can brag for you, Fernanda.
Speaker 1:Our baby's. Our bro has a cancer.
Speaker 4:Cancer. Yeah, when's her?
Speaker 1:birthday July 20th.
Speaker 4:I'm the 17th.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so, and it's uncomfortable, right, especially with PCOS, like you have the potential to produce too many eggs, which puts a strain on your body and you get a lot of bloating, so you have to really watch, like your electrolytes and things like that. But actually her egg retrieval honestly went as seamless as possible and it was like three weeks so I had been, and that was the other thing too. I was like I went through almost a year and a half of bullshit, bullshit, bullshit of emotional you know, roller coaster A roller coaster, bullshit, bullshit of emotional, you know, rollercoaster, rollercoaster, thank you.
Speaker 1:It's like overwhelming this, but and then you get three fucking weeks and it's perfect, and I'm like this is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:And now you have to suffer for nine months.
Speaker 4:Poor Jackie, though Jackie was probably getting cussed out every minute like if she'd walk into the room. She's like what the fuck are you staring at me for?
Speaker 2:Why is that on the floor? You did this to me. I cussed.
Speaker 4:You did this to me. This is your fault. Get out, don't you have something to do in the garage? Does something need to get fixed? Go whittle some wood. Go do something. The light is out.
Speaker 1:Go put a light bulb in the lamp, she just like starts, she's never coming out.
Speaker 2:Drinks whiskey every night. I'm like, damn girl, I can't drink a thing. What are you doing? She's eating the edibles quietly in the background. Yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1:We laugh about it, but it's serious.
Speaker 3:I'm sure, I'm sure Okay.
Speaker 2:So now we're going to move to like you have the baby, yes, and how does that work now? Because legally, through the process of having the IVF and all of that, you're doing it as a married couple. But what happens thereafter? When the baby is born, is she automatically both of yours? How does that work?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so this I think that, because a gay marriage is legal, this process should have been easier, and I think that they need to figure that out because yeah, so it depends on the state.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, coming down to it. And then actually we're very much aware because of how the election results turned out and it's something that you know, everybody should be aware of, especially gay couples. So in California, we are both on the birth certificate.
Speaker 4:How did that happen? So when the baby was born, you guys were, or did you guys have to go through paperwork?
Speaker 1:No they were both on the birth certificate because we are married. So, we had our marriage license and in California she is legally both Jackie and I.
Speaker 4:Okay, well, I heard something so different. I heard that you would have the baby and then you guys would have to like file paperwork.
Speaker 1:No, that's the second parent adoption that still has to happen.
Speaker 4:Oh, so you still have to go through that.
Speaker 1:Yes, so in California for like legal disputes and things like that, because we're in California and she's on the birth certificate and we have the paperwork Because you sign paperwork too when you're doing the IVF transfer that you're going into this together. Right, I can't destroy the eggs without Jackie's consent or signing off on it, or the embryos without signing off on it Because you guys 50-50% own those eggs.
Speaker 1:We had the intent of doing it together, and so we're both on the birth certificate for California. So, for all intents and purposes, in California it's fine. Now, as soon as you go out of California, that's where it becomes the wild wild west, depending on where you're going or if you're traveling out of the country. Okay, so up until this point, we've been able to get Roan a passport, all of this stuff without doing the second parent adoption.
Speaker 1:Now for security and safety reasons, depending on where we're going to go, or if we were to travel out of state that didn't recognize you know surrogacy, or you know everything that's going on in. Italy same thing. We have to go through the second parent, adoption.
Speaker 4:So, if you were to go to a country, let's just say the Middle East, because we all know the Middle East.
Speaker 3:Not that we would ever go.
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm Persian, I wouldn't even go. I was like, says the Persian, says the Persian, the Persian Muslim, oh, the Persian Muslim. Okay, says the persian, says persian, the persian muslim, no, the persian muslim. If you were to go to a country like the middle east, even though she's on the birth certificate, it wouldn't matter, right, it wouldn't matter.
Speaker 1:That is wild yeah, it doesn't matter and honestly I don't even know that having our legal paperwork done would matter at the least East.
Speaker 3:No, they don't care. Yeah, no, which is?
Speaker 1:why we don't go there?
Speaker 4:No, I don't think we, which is why we're not leaving California.
Speaker 2:So you, basically she has to go through adopting.
Speaker 1:Rowan yeah, we still have to do that.
Speaker 4:Oh, you still have to do that.
Speaker 3:If we never left California and California lost to the same.
Speaker 1:You don't have to do it, but like ever, if we go to a state that repeals things and then doesn't recognize then the second parent, adoption would still be legal federally in that state. When I say leave California, I mean physically leave California, so travel anything like that you don't mean like move to another state.
Speaker 2:I don't mean move to another state.
Speaker 1:You just mean like move to another state. I don't mean move to another state, I mean for travel purposes. Yeah, like if we're going to travel somewhere, you need to have all of that paperwork completed. Also, side note, you should absolutely have everything worked out and notarized for your medical directive. Yeah, yeah, so before you travel that kind of thing. So, before you travel that kind of thing, so because we still need to do that and we were trying to do it in December but everything got a little crazy and you have to pay. Technically, I think you can probably do the paperwork in California by yourself and file and do all that stuff. They do make it relatively easy in California, especially if you were married at the time of the birth. But because this one's due in April, we're just going to wait. Hire a lawyer, do I know? Our second one's due in April? I hope it's April 21st.
Speaker 4:Oh, you want a Taurus I do not, I do.
Speaker 2:She doesn't?
Speaker 3:It's my birthday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's between Jackie and I, because we're only like three days apart. I would love to have another.
Speaker 1:Taurus for sure, because this one's going to be an Aries.
Speaker 3:We don't know.
Speaker 1:The mom knows, but I don't want to be pregnant for that long because my due date is April 16th. Oh, you could.
Speaker 2:I have to go more. No, she's trying to get it out. You could go another couple days and make it to the 21st.
Speaker 1:I think if I was going to have a natural birth, probably, but I have to have a C-section oh okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I got preeclampsia the first time around. Oh, who, yeah, which is like a whole other thing. Yeah, birthing experience. Going back to the second parent, adoption, we're going to do that once the other one's born, and we'll just have it all done together Together, because in California and we looked it up, don't quote me on this, please back check it for sure, but because, regardless of whose DNA it is the birthing parent has the parental rights, really, yeah, so like even if we were to go out of state, like I would have the parental rights over both of the kids because I gave birth to them.
Speaker 4:Interesting.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. I'm curious to know too, like your I mean, I have questions for Jackie but like your connection to the baby, if it differs from your connection to Rowan, or like is there anything that you feel is different Besides the cravings, besides the cravings and like nicotine no nicotine, no nicotine, she's not going through with the drug.
Speaker 1:Um, I would say for me, no, oh, okay at all, because if we're being candid, uh-huh, um, even when rowan was born, uh-huh, the first couple days until those pregnancy hormones like really kick in and the attachments like doing weird things to your brain. You're like give me my baby, I need to smell it. That happens not right away for some people. It didn't happen right away for me, yeah. And so, like we had this baby, I knew it came out of me and I'm like you're kind of a stranger dude, like I don't really know you Like there wasn't this whole like overwhelming love at first sight type thing, that people describe Right Like oh my God, I'm so in love.
Speaker 1:That happened to me two days later, when the pregnancy hormones kicked or the you know, postpartum hormones kicked in and then I'm like obsessed with her, and then the anxiety kicks in, like all of these things, um. But I think for me it's the second time around is unique because we already have this like beautiful little human that we created and I'm obsessed with her, um, and so this pregnancy is a lot less anxiety ridden. I don't have a lot of anxiety with this one um, which makes it more enjoyable. For that reason, yeah, and she's definitely unique you know, in her patterns and things like that.
Speaker 1:She's way more active than I ever remember Rowan being and just like you know and seeing her little face and the ultrasounds and stuff, like it's different, but I feel my relationship with both of them will be similar to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is why I wanted to birth both of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I wanted that same relationship.
Speaker 2:I think it's beautiful. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful experience because I think you, as the parent whose DNA it is, I feel like you will have your own unique connection to the baby. But then the person who's also giving birth to the child Also it's your blood, it's your body that made her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I've talked to you know other people about this, both straight people and not straight people, and they're like is it weird carrying Jackie's eggs? And I'm like no dude, like when you get pregnant, it's 50% of your husband. Like you're carrying your husband's kid. It's the same thing to me. It's absolutely the same thing.
Speaker 2:I made her bones yeah, you're making her brain. Yeah, like everything like I made everything about this child so crazy that your dna wouldn't be in her that's the crazy wild part yeah yeah, science.
Speaker 1:I still feel like I'm probably maybe not like genetic influence, no, but for sure, 100, 100, 100, like it's 100%, of course, of course 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2:But it's just crazy to me that your body's making her, yet she doesn't carry any of your DNA.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I still think that there's. Yeah, I still think that there's. They're kind of come up with a way for two women to have a child without yeah, like with both of your dnas well, two same-sex people, but yeah I think they're, I think they're definitely working on it. I think they've, I think there's something, yeah, and now can you do it without sperm? I don't know, you need the sperm.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I bet you there'll be a way that they can do it I don't know, maybe they'll just make a baby in a petri dish they do that.
Speaker 1:Now I mean yeah, but I mean like full.
Speaker 2:I mean I would totally be up for that, so that way I don't have to carry because I don't want to have to carry, just like from a blood sample.
Speaker 1:Yeah like, take my blood, I don't even want to donate.
Speaker 2:Like not donate, but take my eggs out.
Speaker 4:Like, just that process makes me your partner. That's what you have a partner for, yeah, but what if my partner can't donate eggs, or my partner's older, because I like older women.
Speaker 1:And then they don't have eggs. So what skews you out about the process?
Speaker 2:Nothing's been in, nothing's coming out. She's ridiculous. She's ridiculous, don't pay her any mind? Nope, not having my huevitos taken out, I'm not having anything going in. No wand, no tools.
Speaker 1:No doctor, hands no doctor hands.
Speaker 2:No reaching in there and pulling them out, no.
Speaker 1:Why they suction them out.
Speaker 2:Actually they suction, why that sounds horrible, why it's not great, why See See, she can tell you it's not great.
Speaker 3:Jackie was fine, you had. See, she can tell you it's not great, she's. Jackie was fine. You had the best night of your life. You go in, you go under anesthesia.
Speaker 2:They pull them out you sit at home, you eat mcdonald's yeah, but but it's the, the, but the process to get to that point. It's not about me being put under, because you will definitely have to put me under, but I'm talking about just the gynecological experience of it all like going through I will say being wand is not a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like all of that, like the wand, ultrasound is horrible and invasive and no matter how nice your fertility doctor is, you're still like I don't know you like that?
Speaker 2:No, and I have to literally prepare myself just to go to the gynecologist. I mean, it's just interesting, like mentally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just have to do that, you know for a short period, multiple times.
Speaker 2:Is being a mother everything you hoped it would be?
Speaker 1:Yes, and it is so much harder than I ever thought it was going to be. Honestly, I can imagine it's like for me the best and worst thing that's ever happened to me simultaneously At the same time Simultaneously. I can't describe to you well enough how much. I love Rowan our girl.
Speaker 1:She's perfect and special and magical and all the things. But then you go through this process of going from an individual which, like, even if you're married, especially if you're married later in life like you're an individual, like you take care of yourself, you do your own thing, whatever into now you're a unit and you're tired all the time. And you're tired all the time and just you know the selfishness that you did have really just gets beaten out of you and like beaten I mean not physically no, I know, but definitely metaphorically yeah and, uh, you know, developing patience I was like patience is a virtue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't really understand what you had to go through to become patient. Yeah, you know, developing just like the patience and the grace to give yourself grace, give your kid grace, give your partner grace and, at the end of the day, come back to and this is really what I live by is like we're doing our best. We're just we're doing our best every day, and I think that's hopefully what most parents are doing, and you're giving your best, yeah, and but it is truly wonderful, but also terrible.
Speaker 2:I can only imagine yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much for being our first guest. Thank you. Our first guest on our show. I don't think it's going to play the clapping, but we'll play clapping, clapping, yay, I don't think that's the clapping We'll just make. Yeah, it says applause right here. I think you're pushing a bunch of different buttons now. It's more editing for me. Thank you for being on with us.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you for being on with us and uh, we appreciate all the information. I'm sure our listeners will appreciate listening and hearing and watching all of this and kind of gathering their information, writing their notes down. Yeah, I did, I appreciated it. I know ava's gonna go home with her little report, yes, and report back to her wife.
Speaker 4:And hopefully it makes the process a little easier. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. So next we're going to have Jackie in the hot seat to talk to us a little bit about her perspective and point of view on being the baby mama. Being the baby, yeah, being the baby mama. Being the baby mama. Yeah, so thank you so much for watching guys. Um, so, thank you so much for watching guys. You can watch the next half of this episode next week. Uh, we're going to do a two part series, so uh, yeah, thank you guys for watching.
Speaker 4:Make sure you subscribe, leave us a comment, send us your ideas, all that good stuff, and we'll see you guys next week.
Speaker 2:Yep Later, booze. Thank you so much for listening to Les Say More, a podcast brought to you by myself, solange Aurelio, ava Mozaffari, and produced by Rossella Testa Video and audio edited by myself as well, solange Aurelio.
